BOOYAH!!!

Hey 'fish, here it is again.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/junior-seau-had-brain-disease-cte-study-reveals-011013

I thought that you said it would never happen again?

I was waiting for you to link this.

Still doesn't change my stance. I never said their weren't risks, I said that every player knows there are risks and they chose to take the risks.

I know your response will be "they don't know how big the risk is". To that I will say it doesn't matter. They know there ARE risks and they still chose to play.

Everybody knew that this would come out about Seau, because everyone wants to find a reason for someone killing themselves. Sometimes there is no answer.

People saying that they know the risks and actually knowing what they are happen to be two totally different things. How many people who have said that they know of the risks have actually stated one of them? Most just say "I know the risks" and leave it at that...

Again, I am not advocating for flag football here but some changes need to be made. The players are getting too big, too fast, too strong to just leave it as is.

There is enough information out these days, that a player can be educated before playing. If he chooses to play, that on him.

I choose to watch them beat the shit out of each other. I enjoy it. I wish I would have had the talent to play at that level.

See, that's just the thing. There isn't enough information even known about neaurological injuries. If you take every bit of information that is known about neurological conditions and put it together, the estimate of it being 5% of the subject has been reached by every expert on the planet. Not much is known by anyone about these types of injuries. I say that I know a lot but most of that is having the knowledge that I know nothing and that anything is possible. For the less severe injuries even basic everyday activities are virtunally impossible. Things that we take for granted everydday are longed for by people who suffer from its affects.

Then there are the more seroious incidents, Holmes, Lanza, Belcher, etc. Sure, not all of them are football related but they are neurological conditions. If enough information was out there about these conditions why did those events happen?

I too wish that I was gifted enough, I might have been actually (not football though) but things "happened".

See, that's just the thing. There is enough to know something might happen. That's enough to decide if you want to risk or not.

I've been following the banter between you two on these threads over the last few months and I think this thread has made the most progress as far as your points are concerned...


CLEARY 2nd is right, we have barely scratched the surface on understanding the effects of neurological injuries and how they correlate to one's mental state at any given moment, especially when the range of emotions seems to be all over the place, i.e. angry, depressed, non-comprehensive, etc. It's gonna be years before we have answers.

That said.. I have to agree with Fish.... "There is enough to know something might happen. That's enough to decide if you want to risk or not"
I couldn't tell you the first thing about how inhaling the smoke of lit tobacco turns into a cancer cell but I know it CAN and that's enough for me.

My 2 cents, I work with sports injuries at a high school. What we started doing 2 yrs ago is the baseline IMPACT test. Work with Henry Ford physicians, they showed us how to administer tests to football team as well as many other sports teams. In my evaluation if I think a FB player has a concussion, I refer the student-athlete to the HF dr's. who then perform a 2nd baseline test. The dr's. then let me know if and when the athlete is ready to compete again.

My job on the sideline of a game with the help of our team doc is to evaluate the injury. Our job is to prevent a kid from going back into the game if we feel he can't. Will a kid say I'm fine, I want to play? of course. Will the coach say I really need this kid to play, of course, my job, doc's job is to have the common sense to say no.

At the high school level this is not their job, their livelyhood. But is there still pressure put on the kid to play hurt, whether if its his head, or knee, or ankle. Of course, this is football, not the ping pong club, don't be pussy, you can play.

Fish, do kids know the risks, of course. We as adults do our best to educate the kid about taking care of injuries, the coaches, we hope, are doing their best on proper technique, tackling, etc. The few that make it to the pros, yes, they know the risks involved. When I listen to former players say would they still play dispite all the injuries they have recieved, I think its close to 100% say yes.

I'm hoping the college & NFL trainers, doctors are doing there job about continuing to educate the players. Is there or was there pressure, especially at he NFL level, on the trainers, docs to let players play injured? I don't know. I gotta believe today, a trainer is going to cover his/her ass, not risks being sued by knowingly let a injured player continue to play. But then you see what happen to RGIII last weekend, how much say did the trainer have?

Fish, Bo, do I have the anwsers, hell no. I have knowledge, education about concussions & head injuries. I know more today than 20 yrs ago. I read about concussions and side effects yrs down the road. I never pretend to say I'm an expert, just have some knowledge.

Back to the HS level, a freshmen last yr., got a concussion the 1st day of pads in august, got a 2nd one game 9, last game of season. His parents told him he's done with FB, not work the risk. A very good hockey player, varsity as a frosh, mild concussion during season. 2nd one last game of yr as a soph. Again his parents, the doc, and even the kid said, I don't want to risk possible damage down the road.

Sorry, this went on longer than I thought. Hopefully it made sense.

At the high school level it is the parents job to make the decision.

At the college level, read immediately following the High School level, it is the coaches job to make these decisions. The student-athletes are cared for by the entrusted coaches. What hurts this is the fact that money and championships determine how much longer the coach is employed. Very few Coaches care about the student-athletes as much as should be done. Coach Hoke is one of those Coaches. Think back to many quotes from Coach Hoke, "It's not about me, it's about those kids."

Fish, question about the parents job to make the decision. During the game the team doc will make final decision to return to game. He might ask for my opinion, but he makes call. We will never risk a kids safety to win a football game, especially head related.

Now if a parent comes down to sideline, kid sprained ankle, hurt shoulder, etc., tells doc I respect, trust your decision about letting my son play, but I feel he shouldn't, of course he is pulled. But I have never seen that. Parent trust us with making correct decision.

If a kid gets a concussion, even if the doc gives permission to play again, yes, the parent can say no, I'm not risking possible further injury.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/11/sports/football/junior-seau-suffered-from-brain-disease.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130111&_r=0

Seau Suffered From Brain Disease

By MARY PILON and KEN BELSON

Published: January 10, 2013 208 Comments


The former N.F.L. linebacker Junior Seau had a degenerative brain disease linked to repeated head trauma when he committed suicide in the spring, the National Institutes of Health said Thursday.

The findings were consistent with chronic traumatic encephalopathy, a degenerative brain disease widely connected to athletes who have absorbed frequent blows to the head, the N.I.H. said in a statement. Seau is the latest and most prominent player to be associated with the disease, which has bedeviled football in recent years as a proliferation of studies has exposed the possible long-term cognitive impact of head injuries sustained on the field.

“The type of findings seen in Mr. Seau’s brain have been recently reported in autopsies of individuals with exposure to repetitive head injury,” the N.I.H. said, “including professional and amateur athletes who played contact sports, individuals with multiple concussions, and veterans exposed to blast injury and other trauma.”

Since C.T.E. was diagnosed in the brain of the former Eagles defensive back Andre Waters after his suicide in 2006, the disease has been found in nearly every former player whose brain was examined posthumously. (C.T.E. can be diagnosed only posthumously.)

Researchers at Boston University, who pioneered the study of C.T.E., have found it in 33 of the 34 brains of former N.F.L. players they have examined.

The N.I.H. began its examination of Seau’s brain tissue in July. In addition to being reviewed by two federal neuropathologists, Seau’s brain was reviewed by three outside neuropathology experts who did not have knowledge of the source of the tissue. Upon initial examination “the brain looked normal,” according to the N.I.H. It was not until doctors looked under the microscope and used staining techniques that the C.T.E. abnormalities were seen.

Each of the neuropathologists examined tissue samples from three unidentified brains. The decision regarding Seau’s brain was “unanimous,” according to the N.I.H. They found “abnormal, small clusters called neurofibrillary tangles of a protein known as tau within multiple regions of Mr. Seau’s brain,” according to the statement. Tau has been found in the brains of those with Alzheimer’s disease and other progressive neurological disorders. The doctors also found a small region in the left frontal lobe of Seau’s brain with evidence of scarring that was “consistent with a small, old, traumatic brain injury.”

Seau’s ex-wife, Gina, said in an interview with ABC News and ESPN: “I think it’s important for everyone to know that Junior did indeed suffer from C.T.E. It’s important that we take steps to help these players. We certainly don’t want to see anything like this happen again to any of our athletes.”

Shortly after Seau’s death of a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the chest at his Oceanside, Calif., home in May, members of his family announced that they would donate his brain to the N.I.H. to be studied. The release of the results Thursday was at the request of the family, the N.I.H. said.

For nearly a decade, much of the groundbreaking work in the study of head trauma and its impact on athletes has been done at the Center for the Study of Traumatic Encephalopathy at the Boston University School of Medicine. The decision by Seau’s family to donate his brain to the N.I.H. was an acknowledgment that the study of head trauma had grown well beyond the province of a handful of pathologists, and become a public health issue of national importance. Financing for the research has expanded, too; the N.F.L. donated $30 million to the N.I.H. as part of its battle to address head trauma and the long-term health issues that stem from it. The prominence of soldiers returning from battlefields with head trauma has also prompted the Defense Department to play a larger role.

“What’s been coming out has raised a lot of questions about public health,” said Dr. Walter J. Koroshetz, the deputy director of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke, which is part of the N.I.H. and finances traumatic brain injury research. “What we have now is a tip of the iceberg, and we don’t know what’s below.”

The N.I.H. is not the only government organization studying head trauma. In September, the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health, which is part of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, released a study that showed that a disproportionate number of men who played at least five seasons in the N.F.L. from 1959 to 1988 developed Alzheimer’s disease or Lou Gehrig’s disease. Players in “speed” positions more prone to high-speed collisions were three times more likely to have died as a result of a neurodegenerative disease, according to the study. The Institute of Medicine, which is part of the National Academies of Science, has also undertaken a 15-month investigation into sports-related concussions sustained by young athletes.

Researchers and advocates for retired players who now have degenerative brain diseases welcome the government’s greater role, in part because of its deep pockets and ability to shine a brighter light on a complicated topic. Already, the increased attention on the issue has made it easier to get athletes and soldiers to commit to donating their brains to science.

“That’s what the C.T.E. field needs, funding and attention of the country’s top scientists,” said Chris Nowinski, the executive director of the Sports Legacy Institute and the co-director of the Center for the Study of Traumatic Encephalopathy at the Boston University School of Medicine. “Our researchers are great, but there’s more work that needs to be done.”

Seau’s suicide was one of several by former N.F.L. players, including Waters, raising concern about head injuries in the sport. In February 2011, Dave Duerson, a former Chicago Bears player, shot himself in the chest, saying in a note that he wanted his brain donated for research. Doctors determined that Duerson had C.T.E.

Duerson’s son, Tregg, is suing the N.F.L., claiming the league did not meaningfully warn players about the potential risks of concussions.

Ray Easterling, a safety for the Atlanta Falcons in the 1970s and a plaintiff in a lawsuit against the league over its handling of concussion-related injuries, died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound two weeks before Seau. Thousands of players and their spouses have joined the suit.

“The finding underscores the recognized need for additional research to accelerate a fuller understanding of C.T.E.,” the N.F.L. said Thursday in a statement. Pointing to the money it has committed to the N.I.H. and the $100 million the league plans to invest in medical research, the N.F.L. added, “We have work to do, and we’re doing it.”

The last team Seau played for, the New England Patriots, is preparing for a playoff game against the Houston Texans on Sunday. Players who were asked about Seau on Thursday expressed sympathy but did not dwell on the news.

“It’s the playoffs right now, so that’s the least of our concerns right now,” offensive lineman Logan Mankins said. “You could probably say we’re meatheaded and ignorant not to think about it, but maybe in February, after the season, we can think about that.”

Over his 20-year N.F.L. career, Seau played for three teams, most prominently the San Diego Chargers, and made 12 Pro Bowls. He played in two Super Bowls and was named to the 1990s All-Decade Team by the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

After he retired from football following the 2009 season, Seau, often a cheery presence in and around San Diego, was known for his work with his foundation and his restaurant. But friends said they struggled to understand some of Seau’s darker moments. In October 2010, he drove his sport utility vehicle off a cliff along the beach in Carlsbad, Calif., where it landed some 100 feet below the roadside. Seau claimed he fell asleep, but the timing seemed odd. That morning he had been arrested on suspicion of domestic violence.

booboo wrote:

Fish, question about the parents job to make the decision. During the game the team doc will make final decision to return to game. He might ask for my opinion, but he makes call. We will never risk a kids safety to win a football game, especially head related.

Now if a parent comes down to sideline, kid sprained ankle, hurt shoulder, etc., tells doc I respect, trust your decision about letting my son play, but I feel he shouldn't, of course he is pulled. But I have never seen that. Parent trust us with making correct decision.

If a kid gets a concussion, even if the doc gives permission to play again, yes, the parent can say no, I'm not risking possible further injury.

I mean it is the parents job to decide to let their child to continue to play.

At the college level, these guys are adults. It is the players decision once they are cleared by medical staff.

People the same age as college students go to war. Once I joined the Marine Corps, my mother didn't make any decisions in my life. I was an adult. Just like the college student.

Wait a second 'fish, are you saying that just because someone is an adult even if they sustain a Head injury they are capable of making an informed decision?

2ndComingOfBo wrote:

Wait a second 'fish, are you saying that just because someone is an adult even if they sustain a Head injury they are capable of making an informed decision?

no I believe what fish is saying and has been trying to get through to you all along is that we know there is a risk and the knowledge that something might happen should be enough for one to decide if they want to take that risk or not. I don't think Fish could lay it out any clearer.

like not wearing a seat belt, or a helmet, or pointing a laser at your eye, etc.

BTW, a helmet doesn't totally protect you. I could explain it but why? It's obvious that no matter what I say you'll deny. This is almost like talking about politics with someone from the opposite end of the spectrum. Throw religion in there and we're all set.

2ndComingOfBo wrote:

BTW, a helmet doesn't totally protect you. I could explain it but why? It's obvious that no matter what I say you'll deny. This is almost like talking about politics with someone from the opposite end of the spectrum. Throw religion in there and we're all set.

so you get what I'm implying therefor you must understand the point Fish is trying to make. Call it an agreement to disagree if you must but I think it's clear that Fish's point is understood. and to think, religious debate was not necessary.

I'll never agree to disagree, I've seen too many lives absolutely destroyed due vto carelessness. He has his point of view and I'm fine with that. It's wrong but it's his point of view. I can live with that, I just hope he can.

No offense has ever been intended towards 'fish.

2ndComingOfBo wrote:

I'll never agree to disagree, I've seen too many lives absolutely destroyed due vto carelessness. He has his point of view and I'm fine with that. It's wrong but it's his point of view. I can live with that, I just hope he can.

No offense has ever been intended towards 'fish.

I'm just not sure how a point of view that is based on knowing of a risk (albeit not knowing the total extent of the risk) and making a decision based upon said risk is a wrong point of view. Maybe Fish and I just aren't articulate enough to get the point across. or...... maybe we're not dumbing it down to your level (ha ha joking). it's forum, take it for what it is.

Bottom line, there is risk and people know there is a risk. It's up to them to make the decision to participate or not PERIOD. 2nd, although your point is clearly valid, it's well down the road and doesn't apply past mine. it's just moot.

sandyeggo_blue wrote:

2ndComingOfBo wrote:

Wait a second 'fish, are you saying that just because someone is an adult even if they sustain a Head injury they are capable of making an informed decision?

no I believe what fish is saying and has been trying to get through to you all along is that we know there is a risk and the knowledge that something might happen should be enough for one to decide if they want to take that risk or not. I don't think Fish could lay it out any clearer.

like not wearing a seat belt, or a helmet, or pointing a laser at your eye, etc.

Thanks, that's exactly what I've been saying.

We should not let people pass each other in NASCAR because the risks of crashes increase dramatically and put the lives of NASCAR drivers in danger.

We should get rid of the Pitcher in baseball because so many injuries, including but not limited to career ending concussions, occur from defenseless batters that get hit in the head by a pitch. I propose major league players hit off tees to make the game safer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpV852GDbGQ