OT: Bullying in the NFL

I wish this forum had a block thread feature.

It does, and it works like this: If you don't want to see a thread, don't read it.

hailtoyourvictor wrote:

fishblue22, where do you work that you would be able to keep your job after punching a co-worker? I'd be fired, and frankly, a prick that is "hazing" me doesn't deserve the satisfaction of getting me fired. If I'm having issues like that in the work place, my manager can deal with it.

Now if I'm at a bar and someone says they are going to kill my mother, that is a different story.

I spent 20 years in the Marine Corps.  You are either tough or you are run over.  You are put in situations were you have to man up or someone else will and you will lose your credibility and your troops won't follow you.  Yes, there are dust ups and bullying and test of wills..

Civilians wouldn't understand it.  I've stood up for people and had people stand up for me.  I've been in fights that I lost, more that I lost than won.  But I would never back down.

fishgoblue22 wrote:

hailtoyourvictor wrote:

fishblue22, where do you work that you would be able to keep your job after punching a co-worker? I'd be fired, and frankly, a prick that is "hazing" me doesn't deserve the satisfaction of getting me fired. If I'm having issues like that in the work place, my manager can deal with it.

Now if I'm at a bar and someone says they are going to kill my mother, that is a different story.

I spent 20 years in the Marine Corps.  You are either tough or you are run over.  You are put in situations were you have to man up or someone else will and you will lose your credibility and your troops won't follow you.  Yes, there are dust ups and bullying and test of wills..

Civilians wouldn't understand it.  I've stood up for people and had people stand up for me.  I've been in fights that I lost, more that I lost than won.  But I would never back down.

So if I'm being harrassed at my place of work, a hospital, you think the best way to resolve the problem would be to knock the guy out on the ICU floor? Sorry, but we non-understanding civilians have to deal with things in other manners that resorting to force/violence all the time.

Aside from that, thanks for your service. My first job (I don't know why I left it, blah) was at the VA up here. You get a whole new appreciation for vets working for a VA.

Not all "bulleying", "hazing", or "harrasment" is physical, either. There are thousands of forms of mental harrasment. If a female is the one doing the mental harrasmnet, do you still condone beating the brakes off of her? Next time I take shit from a female doctor that I don't have the credentials to tell "no" to, should I just knock her out?

Again, I think I'll just let my manager handle those situations and that has nothing to do with me being a "pussy".

hailtoyourvictor wrote:

Not all "bulleying", "hazing", or "harrasment" is physical, either. There are thousands of forms of mental harrasment. If a female is the one doing the mental harrasmnet, do you still condone beating the brakes off of her? Next time I take shit from a female doctor that I don't have the credentials to tell "no" to, should I just knock her out?

Again, I think I'll just let my manager handle those situations and that has nothing to do with me being a "pussy".

Were talking apples and oranges here. In the service, and the NFL, toughness is a requirement. Not as much in our jobs.

He is right, we don't really understand.

Thanks EJ.  My point exactly.

EJinGA wrote:

hailtoyourvictor wrote:

Not all "bulleying", "hazing", or "harrasment" is physical, either. There are thousands of forms of mental harrasment. If a female is the one doing the mental harrasmnet, do you still condone beating the brakes off of her? Next time I take shit from a female doctor that I don't have the credentials to tell "no" to, should I just knock her out?

Again, I think I'll just let my manager handle those situations and that has nothing to do with me being a "pussy".

Were talking apples and oranges here. In the service, and the NFL, toughness is a requirement. Not as much in our jobs.

He is right, we don't really understand.

EJinGA wrote:

hailtoyourvictor wrote:

Not all "bulleying", "hazing", or "harrasment" is physical, either. There are thousands of forms of mental harrasment. If a female is the one doing the mental harrasmnet, do you still condone beating the brakes off of her? Next time I take shit from a female doctor that I don't have the credentials to tell "no" to, should I just knock her out?

Again, I think I'll just let my manager handle those situations and that has nothing to do with me being a "pussy".

Were talking apples and oranges here. In the service, and the NFL, toughness is a requirement. Not as much in our jobs.

He is right, we don't really understand.

NFL players treat football as their job. You don't handle workplace issues with physical violence if you want to keep your job.

hailtoyourvictor wrote:

EJinGA wrote:

Were talking apples and oranges here. In the service, and the NFL, toughness is a requirement. Not as much in our jobs.

He is right, we don't really understand.

NFL players treat football as their job. You don't handle workplace issues with physical violence if you want to keep your job.

Come on hail, you know working in an office or something like that is completely different from playing a professional sport.  Is it your job to push the guy from a competitor out of the way using brute force?

Mike Golic put it perfectly this morning.  You start the fight on the practice field or in the locker room and it will be broken up fast and the bullying and hazing stops. 

Heck, do you think the Bears want the Lions to go out of business?  In the business world you want to take out the other business, but in pro sports you want them to survive but beat them on the field.

fishgoblue22 wrote:

hailtoyourvictor wrote:

fishblue22, where do you work that you would be able to keep your job after punching a co-worker? I'd be fired, and frankly, a prick that is "hazing" me doesn't deserve the satisfaction of getting me fired. If I'm having issues like that in the work place, my manager can deal with it.

Now if I'm at a bar and someone says they are going to kill my mother, that is a different story.

I spent 20 years in the Marine Corps.  You are either tough or you are run over.  You are put in situations were you have to man up or someone else will and you will lose your credibility and your troops won't follow you.  Yes, there are dust ups and bullying and test of wills..

Civilians wouldn't understand it.  I've stood up for people and had people stand up for me.  I've been in fights that I lost, more that I lost than won.  But I would never back down.

Can't remember if I've ever thanked you for your service before or not fish- but if not, I am now.

A close cousin of mine was a Captain in the Marines and served a one year tour in Vietnam 1970-71 flying Huey gunships. My marine experience is all vicarious through him but I have the utmost respect for him and all those who served.

'shoes

The simple fact that you are equating military service to a game is absolutely absurd to me. I can't recall who agreed with me on it but saying that football and war are the same is completely idiotic. In football you do not need to earn the same respect as in the battle-field. 'nuff said..

It was wrong for Incognito to have taken it to this level. It was wrong for the Miami Dolphins coaching staff to encourage this type of behavior ESPECIALLY from someone who has such a history with anger management issues like Incognito. Martin might be a little soft, so what. If you do not like it cut him, put him on the practice squad. There is no need to play with his mind...

EJinGA wrote:

hailtoyourvictor wrote:

Not all "bulleying", "hazing", or "harrasment" is physical, either. There are thousands of forms of mental harrasment. If a female is the one doing the mental harrasmnet, do you still condone beating the brakes off of her? Next time I take shit from a female doctor that I don't have the credentials to tell "no" to, should I just knock her out?

Again, I think I'll just let my manager handle those situations and that has nothing to do with me being a "pussy".

Were talking apples and oranges here. In the service, and the NFL, toughness is a requirement. Not as much in our jobs.

He is right, we don't really understand.

i can't believe we're comparing an office to an nfl locker room or an office to marine barracks.  

but since we did, there is hazing everywhere -it's just in different forms.  obviously, it can't be called "hazing" because of legal reasons, but it's still there.  in the nfl and in the service it may be physical, and in an office it may be working OT and the crappy shifts, bringing the donuts, or pouring coffee. this may seem mild, but it's still somewhat hazing, and is likely to be more intense depending on the level of position.

tell me hazing doesn't exist on Wall Street.  Those interns go through absolute hell and mental anguish  -much worse than any football player or any frat pledge. anyone here ever read Liar's Poker?  i recommend it for anyone, it's a true story about a guy trying to make it on Wall st fresh out of Harvard I believe, you'll be amazed and more shocked than this, if Incognito's behavior shocked you.

That was NEVER the issue. The problem that I have with it is that Miami coaches ordered Incognito to do it. Incognito is a very troubled individual with a shaky past.

2nd you're argument is all over the place. try to be consistent at least.

anyway i still have yet to see an NFL player defend Martin's actions over the bully's.

Keyshawn Johnson: "Chidi Ahanotu played with me in Tampa Bay, and I used to watch Warren Sapp do some similar things to Chidi Ahanotu," Johnson told KGMZ-FM in San Francisco, via ProFootballTalk. "Now I'm saying this on the record, and it's going to go all over the country after I say this. I used to watch him try to bully Chidi Ahanotu, OK? Because he felt he was more superior than Chidi. So one day, you know what Ahanotu did? He got up and he told him, 'Get your you-know-what in the middle of the floor right now. I'm tired of it."

Basically, Johnson is saying that Ahanotu ended the bullying by challenging Sapp to a fight.

"At that point, guess what Sapp did? He sat down. And then everybody else in the locker room, me, the Derrick Brookses, the Brian Kellys, we all said, 'Good for you, man,'" Johnson said. "[Sapp] didn't want no part of it. Until you stand up for yourself and don't allow these chumps to do that sort of stuff to you, they'll keep doing it. That's the way bullies are."

Ryan Tanninhill: "I think if you would have asked Jon Martin [before he left Miami] who his best friend on the team was, he would've said Richie Incognito," Tannehill said. "The first guy to stand for Jonathan when anything went down on the field -- any kind of tussle -- Richie was the first guy there. When they wanted to hang out outside of football -- who was together? Richie and Jonathan."

The Dolphins quarterback even described Incognito's relationship with Martin as a brotherly one at one point during his press conference on Wednesday.

"Jonathan's like Richie's little brother," Tannehill said. "He gave him a hard time and he messed with him, but he was the first one there to have his back in any situation. It's a big surprise what's going on."

Brian Hartline: "One, if I'm not mistaken, this was the same guy who was laughing about the voicemail at one point in time," Hartline said. "Second of all, if you go through the whole voicemail there are some things said that you probably shouldn't say in general, friends or not friends. But with that being said I never thought it was a death threat. I never thought he was going to do the things he said. If you can't take validity from one part of the voicemail how can you take validity from the whole -- you can't pick and choose which parts count and which parts don't.

In my mind I think it was something that was taken advantage of."

Asked to clarify his point about Martin "laughing" at the voicemail, Hartline said that it was being "passed around" at one point in time as a joke.

"I just remember I thought [the voicemail] was being passed around as a joke," Hartline said.

He echoed Tannehill's sentiments that the two players were friends and said they were "always playing around."

"Whenever I saw Jon and hung out with Jon it was usually with Richie because they were friends," Hartline said. "I've seen pictures of them on the plane playing around. They were always playing around. The O-line as a group was a big family."

Now let's go back and check out the earlier posts that suggest Incognito was capable of killing someone. See how easily people are manipulated by only hearing 1% of a story (not even 1%.) John Madden said it best when asked about it yesterday: (paraphrasing) I can't make any judgement on it yet like so many people have. How can anyone make such strong opinions without knowing anything, and these texts were from April?

2ndComingOfBo wrote:

mgoblue93 wrote:

MgoBlue wrote:

mgoblue93 wrote:

What I find most disturbing about this story, is that ESPN initially labeled Incognito's texts and voicemails as "disturbing," without considering or bringing to light the subject of hazing, and as if Incognito's comments of threatening to kill his mother were literal, psychotic, and serious; which we find out that they were anything but, as this is a case of hazing.  

The way they broke this story was completely deceiving.  Incognito might have taken his comments too far, and even then, did he really?  He obviously isn't serious about killing Martin's mother.  This is the norm in an NFL locker room.  Likewise this is no different than hazing in a fraternity.  Why wasn't this initially reported?

I am sorry regardless of intentions there is no place for this.  Are we that desensitized that threatening to kill ones mom is acceptable as long as we don't really mean it?  It amazes me with everything we see in the news people still blow off threats.  Most mass shootings had warning signs, typically threats prior to the event.  Still, we sit here and want to debate intent.  The world gets sadder everyday.   

lol mmkay.

it is sad.  sad that people associate this as a warning sign for a possible mass shooting or murder.  it's sad how easily the media has us by the strings.

he left multiple texts and voice mails dude.  it's hazing and nothing more.

93, are you sure that it's nothing more than hazing?  Are you insisting that it has no affect on the individual in question?  Pretty safe to say that James Holmes, Cho Seung-Hui, and Adam Lanza were bullied.  How did that work out?  I'm not saying that Jonathan Martin will go on a killing spree now but you get my point...

lol that doozy. cho sung hui and adam lanza...nice comparison.

mgoblue93 wrote:

2nd you're argument is all over the place.  try to be consistent at least.

anyway i still have yet to see an NFL player defend Martin's actions over the bully's.

Keyshawn Johnson: "Chidi Ahanotu played with me in Tampa Bay, and I used to watch Warren Sapp do some similar things to Chidi Ahanotu," Johnson told KGMZ-FM in San Francisco, via ProFootballTalk. "Now I'm saying this on the record, and it's going to go all over the country after I say this. I used to watch him try to bully Chidi Ahanotu, OK? Because he felt he was more superior than Chidi. So one day, you know what Ahanotu did? He got up and he told him, 'Get your you-know-what in the middle of the floor right now. I'm tired of it."

Basically, Johnson is saying that Ahanotu ended the bullying by challenging Sapp to a fight.

"At that point, guess what Sapp did? He sat down. And then everybody else in the locker room, me, the Derrick Brookses, the Brian Kellys, we all said, 'Good for you, man,'" Johnson said. "[Sapp] didn't want no part of it. Until you stand up for yourself and don't allow these chumps to do that sort of stuff to you, they'll keep doing it. That's the way bullies are."

That's funny. Sapp has come out and said Incognito called him the N word.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/warren-sapp-says-richie-incognito-called-him-n-181618860--nfl.html

Sapp has always been a punk. Great player, but a punk. He played at Miami during their thug days. I wouldn't believe a thing he says.

Listen, if both parties agree to the hazing, then fine. For you guys that join frats you knew what you were getting yourself into and if you didn't like the hazing, don't join right?

This is a man's job we are talking about. If he doesn't like to be harassed at his place of work, he shouldn't have to put up with it. He also shouldn't have to resort to fisticuffs to get the situation under control. This isn't the Wild Wild West anymore, folks.

Read this: http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/07/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-dolphins-lydon-murtha/?sct=hp_t11_a1&eref=sihp

Where have I seen this before? This whole story is really familiar. Weaker guy is not up to standard. A code red is ordered to train him. Things go awry and the perpetrator(s) have to answer for their actions. Maybe this is just like the Marine Corp.

Great movie.

Real life shouldn't imitate military hiearchy, though. Violence shouldn't be the first form of retaliation when you are in a workplace.

There's only so much the coaches can do. They are not in the locker room every day. They only hear so much about what's going on so what can you do if you're getting everything secondhand. ... I think it falls on the players and you've got to police it. Like I just said, there's a decent way to do everything. Even if you are going to do hazing, there's a decent way to do it. I feel like this is part of being a rookie but we still love you like a brother. That's a way to do it versus saying it's part of being a rookie and you're not equal to us.

-- Detroit WR Nate Burleson, as told to ESPN.com Lions reporter Michael Rothstein

MgoBlue wrote:

Where have I seen this before?  This whole story is really familiar.  Weaker guy is not up to standard.  A code red is ordered to train him.  Things go awry and the perpetrator(s) have to answer for their actions.  Maybe this is just like the Marine Corp.

I think that it's safe to say when you are using a movie ("A Few Good Men") to justify your point that you have lost.

Once again, Football is a game, the Marines are a military organization that defends our country. Notice the difference?

There are paralles. We die, they face injury dangers.  But the esprit is the same. Brotherhood to create a unit that moves as one.  You train together, you sweat together.  I spent more time with fellow Marines than I did my family, similar to football players.

Oh and that movie is fake and ridiculous.

Yes there are similarities but that's where it ends. IMHO that is like comparing Pee-Wee football to the NFL. You can't make comparisons when they are only similarities. MgoBlue made the comparison, not me...

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/11/nfl-hazing-polamalu-scott-dolphins-incognito-martin/