OT: Justin Verlander

Going to the Toledo Mud Hens game on Sunday at Indianapolis to watch Justin Verlander make his rehab start. Should be fun. Hopefully he looks good and can return soon.

Hope so too Fish. Don't know if he'll ever get back to his peak. Max has pitched great for Washington hasn't he?

Upton woman ruined him. He should have stuck with Emily.

I want a full report on Sunday night 'fish.

dwoody wrote:

Upton woman ruined him. He should have stuck with Emily.

A crap load of innings for 10 years is probably more responsible for his decline.

fishgoblue22 wrote:

dwoody wrote:

Upton woman ruined him. He should have stuck with Emily.

A crap load of innings for 10 years is probably more responsible for his decline.

Yes his velocity has been down for 2-3 years. His innings level has been high relative to his era, but how did the great pitchers of the 60's, 70's, 80's (and earlier) manage much greater IP counts without declining so quickly? I just don't get it.

wshoes wrote:

fishgoblue22 wrote:

dwoody wrote:

Upton woman ruined him. He should have stuck with Emily.

A crap load of innings for 10 years is probably more responsible for his decline.

Yes his velocity has been down for 2-3 years. His innings level has been high relative to his era, but how did the great pitchers of the 60's, 70's, 80's (and earlier) manage much greater IP counts without declining so quickly? I just don't get it.

different era. guys back in the day were conditioned to throw more often on less rest. none of this every-other-5-days wussy stuff  that's my only guess.

fishgoblue22 wrote:

dwoody wrote:

Upton woman ruined him. He should have stuck with Emily.

A crap load of innings for 10 years is probably more responsible for his decline.

Ding. Ding. Ding.

wshoes wrote:

fishgoblue22 wrote:

dwoody wrote:

Upton woman ruined him. He should have stuck with Emily.

A crap load of innings for 10 years is probably more responsible for his decline.

Yes his velocity has been down for 2-3 years. His innings level has been high relative to his era, but how did the great pitchers of the 60's, 70's, 80's (and earlier) manage much greater IP counts without declining so quickly? I just don't get it.

Guys also didn't throw 100 mph, throw unGodly breaking stuff, or have as deceptive of arm motions. The human body is not constructed to take that kind of stress. I hate people claiming that the old pitchers used to do it, why can't Verlander. It's not the same.

TheNewBlueOrder wrote:

wshoes wrote:

fishgoblue22 wrote:

dwoody wrote:

Upton woman ruined him. He should have stuck with Emily.

A crap load of innings for 10 years is probably more responsible for his decline.

Yes his velocity has been down for 2-3 years. His innings level has been high relative to his era, but how did the great pitchers of the 60's, 70's, 80's (and earlier) manage much greater IP counts without declining so quickly? I just don't get it.

Guys also didn't throw 100 mph, throw unGodly breaking stuff, or have as deceptive of arm motions.  The human body is not constructed to take that kind of stress.  I hate people claiming that the old pitchers used to do it, why can't Verlander.  It's not the same.

I agree 100%. He put a lot of unnatural torque on his arm. He needs to adjust to being a smart pitcher, not an overpowering pitcher.

fishgoblue22 wrote:

TheNewBlueOrder wrote:

wshoes wrote:

fishgoblue22 wrote:

dwoody wrote:

Upton woman ruined him. He should have stuck with Emily.

A crap load of innings for 10 years is probably more responsible for his decline.

Yes his velocity has been down for 2-3 years. His innings level has been high relative to his era, but how did the great pitchers of the 60's, 70's, 80's (and earlier) manage much greater IP counts without declining so quickly? I just don't get it.

Guys also didn't throw 100 mph, throw unGodly breaking stuff, or have as deceptive of arm motions.  The human body is not constructed to take that kind of stress.  I hate people claiming that the old pitchers used to do it, why can't Verlander.  It's not the same.

I agree 100%.  He put a lot of unnatural torque on his arm.  He needs to adjust to being a smart pitcher, not an overpowering pitcher.

Im hoping/thinking that's what he's trying to do now.

Verlander did not throw harder than Nolan Ryan, Bob Gibson, Bob Fellar, just to name a few.

wshoes wrote:

Verlander did not throw harder than Nolan Ryan, Bob Gibson, Bob Fellar, just to name a few.

Gotta love the old guys that won't let facts go...

Tigers desparetly need to trade for another SP.

TheNewBlueOrder wrote:

wshoes wrote:

Verlander did not throw harder than Nolan Ryan, Bob Gibson, Bob Fellar, just to name a few.

Gotta love the old guys that won't let facts go...

Ryan, Gibson and Feller all threw harder than 100 MPH. I think the constant year round working out and weight lifting has contributed to arm problems too. The guys in the past pitched their season and then took the rest of the year off. I really think that was some good recovery for the body.

TheNewBlueOrder wrote:

wshoes wrote:

Verlander did not throw harder than Nolan Ryan, Bob Gibson, Bob Fellar, just to name a few.

Gotta love the old guys that won't let facts go...

Really- what facts are those?

Of course I didn't see any of the game but what I read didn't sound great. However, as long as he comes out of this with no health problems he should be fine. It will of course take time for him to regain a sense of Major league for.

'shoes, the facts of throwing unGodly breaking stuff or have as deceptive of arm motions. The old guys just reared and threw the ball as hard as they could.

TheNewBlueOrder wrote:

Of course I didn't see any of the game but what I read didn't sound great.  However, as long as he comes out of this with no health problems he should be fine.  It will of course take time for him to regain a sense of Major league for.

'shoes, the facts of throwing unGodly breaking stuff or have as deceptive of arm motions.  The old guys just reared and threw the ball as hard as they could.

Never saw Nolan Ryan eh? He had a great curve ball to go with the heater. Ranked as the 7th best curveball in history on the first list I checked.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/585147-mlb-power-rankings-the-top-10-curveballs-in-baseball-history/page/5

Fastest of all time? Ryan 1 and Feller 2, JV a very solid 12th.

http://www.efastball.com/baseball/stats/fastest-pitch-speed-in-major-leagues/

So JV didn't look bad, but not great either.  He hit mid 90s consistently with his fastball.  93-95.  He ran into some control issues in the 2nd walking a couple.  The hits he gave up were on off speed stuff.  He should have gotten out of the 2nd without giving up a run but Machado camped under a pop up that would have been the third out but the ball. Landed right next to him.  So that went into the books as a double scoring two runs.

In the 3rd he was the victim of more bad defense.  Should have been the second out, but Fields ran back on a fly ball to center and let it land in front of him.

Overall, it looked like he was just working on stuff.  I have high hopes.

Good to hear fish- we need him!

wshoes wrote:

TheNewBlueOrder wrote:

Of course I didn't see any of the game but what I read didn't sound great.  However, as long as he comes out of this with no health problems he should be fine.  It will of course take time for him to regain a sense of Major league for.

'shoes, the facts of throwing unGodly breaking stuff or have as deceptive of arm motions.  The old guys just reared and threw the ball as hard as they could.

Never saw Nolan Ryan eh? He had a great curve ball to go with the heater. Ranked as the 7th best curveball in history on the first list I checked.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/585147-mlb-power-rankings-the-top-10-curveballs-in-baseball-history/page/5

Fastest of all time? Ryan 1 and Feller 2, JV a very solid 12th.

http://www.efastball.com/baseball/stats/fastest-pitch-speed-in-major-leagues/

You seriously are using two people to justify your claim.  One has been retired for over 20 years and then Feller I don't think played during my lifetime.  The game has changed, acknowledge it and move on...

Re-read my original point- yes the game has obviously changed but why? It isn't because JV throws harder or more curves or harder curves. I posed a question, you gave an answer, I challenged the logic of your answer- that's all.

I think there is something wrong with pitching coaches or modern training methods, maybe it is as was said above- they work too hard in the off season. Seems counter intuitive, but I don't know. I understand a guy like Lincecum flaming out young because his motion was so unnatural- it put unreal torque on his arm. JV on the other hand appeared to have a more sound/ economical motion.

wshoes wrote:

Re-read my original point- yes the game has obviously changed but why? It isn't because JV throws harder or more curves or harder curves. I posed a question, you gave an answer, I challenged the logic of your answer- that's all.

I think there is something wrong with pitching coaches or modern training methods, maybe it is as was said above- they work too hard in the off season. Seems counter intuitive, but I don't know. I understand a guy like Lincecum flaming out young because his motion was so unnatural- it put unreal torque on his arm. JV on the other hand appeared to have  a more sound/ economical motion.

While I'm not certain the year-round training most likely makes things worse for recovery of the ligaments. Pitchers throw much more breaking stuff now-a-ddays, and start at an earlier age. Kids (myself included in this when I was younger) believe that they are immortal and can pitch more interms of quantity and frequency.