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the artist formally known

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PostSubject: why is michigan   Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:06 pm

signing a 2 star wide receiver, is our passing game so bad that WR don't want to come here. Looking at our receiver core anyone would have a chance to play. Razz Razz

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PostSubject: Re: why is michigan   Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:21 pm

two things....

1) I suspect he's much better than a 2* prospect but given that he was dead set on basketball until the very end he was never properly evaluated as a football prospect.

2) this goes back to one of my two main gripes with JH so far... he's getting outworked on the recruiting trail. He has known for months what the attrition rate was going to be and what the scholarship numbers would be and here we are just before the new year and he's having to recruit a "plan G" guy. For all of Hoke's faults (and there were a lot of them) the one thing I loved about Hoke was that he had a recruiting board dialed in early and got in on his recruits early to mitigate signing days like this. Sure he lost some guys down the stretch but that happens everywhere. I can only think of a handful of late signers in Hoke's four years and none of them were as much of an unknown as this kid.

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PostSubject: Re: why is michigan   Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:44 am

One word: Discouraging.

We are 1-13 against the Buckeyes the last 14 years. Been outscored 465-298 in that same time period and now this year they have 10 players ranked higher than our best recruit for 2018.

Is there light at the end of this tunnel?

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PostSubject: Re: why is michigan   Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:25 am

I have no worries whatsoever. We are moving to where we want to be.
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PostSubject: Re: why is michigan   Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:43 am

sandyeggo_blue wrote:
two things....

1) I suspect he's much better than a 2* prospect but given that he was dead set on basketball until the very end he was never properly evaluated as a football prospect.

2) this goes back to one of my two main gripes with JH so far... he's getting outworked on the recruiting trail. He has known for months what the attrition rate was going to be and what the scholarship numbers would be and here we are just before the new year and he's having to recruit a "plan G" guy. For all of Hoke's faults (and there were a lot of them) the one thing I loved about Hoke was that he had a recruiting board dialed in early and got in on his recruits early to mitigate signing days like this. Sure he lost some guys down the stretch but that happens everywhere. I can only think of a handful of late signers in Hoke's four years and none of them were as much of an unknown as this kid.


I tend to agree with you.  I don't feel like he has done a Rutgers level recruiting job, but i feel he is not in the same class with the Suckeyes or, now PSU and that was the area i felt he would be ahead of in at least the B!G by now!!   My second area is his coaching staff.  I feel like he is slowly falling behind.  I understand losing coaches from them wanting to "move up" but is that what is really happening?  Allowing a friend of his (Drevno) stay on as our offense is not improving??  And you can add Pep to that decline.  Sure we had injuries at the QB position, but to say that John O was our "best" option when the injuries started heppening.  MY OPINION....BAD decisions by them.  That tells me they were not truly evaluating the QBs during practice.  JH was somewhat involved, but his bad judgement was in keeping them  MY OPINION!!

OK...done complaining.  Still love my UMers, and always will!!!!

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE!!!!!! Knock the socks off of South Carolina!!!!

Go Blue!! Smile

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PostSubject: Re: why is michigan   Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:08 pm

GOBLUEJOE66 wrote:

I tend to agree with you.  I don't feel like he has done a Rutgers level recruiting job, but i feel he is not in the same class with the Suckeyes or, now PSU and that was the area i felt he would be ahead of in at least the B!G by now!!   My second area is his coaching staff.  I feel like he is slowly falling behind.  I understand losing coaches from them wanting to "move up" but is that what is really happening?  Allowing a friend of his (Drevno) stay on as our offense is not improving??  And you can add Pep to that decline.  Sure we had injuries at the QB position, but to say that John O was our "best" option when the injuries started heppening.  MY OPINION....BAD decisions by them.  That tells me they were not truly evaluating the QBs during practice.  JH was somewhat involved, but his bad judgement was in keeping them  MY OPINION!!

OK...done complaining.  Still love my UMers, and always will!!!!

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE!!!!!!   Knock the socks off of South Carolina!!!!

Go Blue!!      Smile  


Let me put my two cents in...

First off I half agree with your assessment of the coaching staff. IMO there was no better hire in the history of UM assistants than the Don Brown hire. Maybe one of the old timers on this board will make a coach Carr argument and I'd definitely listen to their point of view but you'd be hard pressed to convince me otherwise on my Don Brown opinion. UM clearly needs another home run hire like that on the O side of the ball. I still think that losing Jed after the first year was the set back that JH still hasn't recovered from. So again, I'm with you 50/50 on that statement.


Regarding recruiting.... I think I should start by saying that while I stand by the second point in my OP, I failed to give JH credit where credit is due in two other points of his recruiting thus far during his tenure.


1) JH is head and shoulders above any coach in the B1G (and maybe the country) in spotting and realizing the potential of "diamond-in-the-rough" recruits. As a fan that lives and breathes the recruiting aspect just as much as the game day aspect I tend to give him quite a bit more leash than the average run-of-the-mill stargazer. That said, don't get it twisted... I fully realize the correlation between top recruits and wins and I am definitely on "Team Stars Matter."   But a quick example of JH finding talent..... off of the top of my head, from Harbaugh's first three classes I can name nine recruits that most other power 5 schools took a pass on and had Michigan stargazing fans scratching their heads when they committed to UM and yet they are now starters or major contributors (or will be this year) for Michigan.

2017 - Mason, Paye, St Juste
2016 - McKeon, Gil, Mettelus
2015 - Ulizio, Perry, Higdon

I think you'd be hard pressed to find 9 guys on a power 5 team that were composite mid-80s grade recruits that produce more than the kids above. So again, I must give JH his credit.

That's not to say Hoke didn't have a few himself (most schools do) but  Hoke whiffed way more than JH has. Again, from the top of my head here are a few guys that come to mind that were composite mid-80s grade recruits in  high school.


2014 - Furbush, Speight
2013 - Hill, Stribling
2012 - Houma, Johnson, Chesson
2011 - Rawls, Clark

I think you could make a valid argument that Speight, Hill, Stribling, Houma and Chesson didn't realize their potential until JH took over so I'm not sure how much you can credit Hoke for taking a shot with them. IMO the only guys on that list above that Hoke should get credit for seeing their potential are Speight, Stribling and Rawls. Hoke was completely enamored with all three so credit to Hoke there.

The point that I'm trying to make is that I firmly believe in the "stars matter" argument however I give JH a lot or credit and a lot more leash because of his proven track record with "less" talent. I wouldn't go as far as saying he's on a Dantonio level but IMO it would be comparing apples to oranges because when Dantonio took over (and for his first 5 years) he had and entire roster of 3* kids with a few 4*s sprinkled in to work with. But it appears they are both good at getting the most out of the lesser polished talent.  


2) The other thing I give JH MAJOR credit for is his ability to recruit top QB talent. It just didn't happen under Hoke and IMO it's what killed UM down the stretch. UM QBs struggled with TOs and stalled drives on a consistent basis under Hoke's tenure while our rivals consistently put Heisman contenders and future NFL QBs on the field. Sure, I get it, UM had a ton of OC changes under Hoke but I don't think my point of inferior QB talent can or needs to be argued against. To see JH bring in and stockpile the type of QB talent he has is a MAJOR plus on JH and his staff.


just my two cents

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PostSubject: Re: why is michigan   Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:30 pm



First off I half agree with your assessment of the coaching staff. IMO there was no better hire in the history of UM assistants than the Don Brown hire. Maybe one of the old timers on this board will make a coach Carr argument and I'd definitely listen to their point of view but you'd be hard pressed to convince me otherwise on my Don Brown opinion. UM clearly needs another home run hire like that on the O side of the ball. I still think that losing Jed after the first year was the set back that JH still hasn't recovered from. So again, I'm with you 50/50 on that statement.

Sandyeggo
I started to end my part about the coaches by stating we need 5+more Don Browns on our staff. JH hit 10+ grand slams with that hire!!!!! Will admit I was scratching my head when he was hired, but not any more!!

Overall, IMO, JH has done a good job recruiting but not to the level I thought he would be at right now. Our record against the Suckeyes and MSU is NOT what I think it should be. Granted the last play in the MSU game in 2016 and the shit the OFFICIALS shoved up ours in the 2016 Suckeye game would make things look a little better, but I think the losses to MSU and the Suckeyes this year showed to me that we aren't close yet, like we should be!

My point about QBs was more about John O'Korn's lack of ability at the QB position in spite of the teaching he got from JH. That guy was clueless and my fault there was JH and the coaches not seeing that earlier.

I am feeling even more excited about UM from 2018 forward, especially from the stable of QBs JH has now that John O is gone!!!! Very Happy Right now I am really anxious to see what Shea and Milton can do. I think that their futures are very high if JH uses them as dual threat QBs, which is their strengths, IMO!!!!! And McCaffery just might push both of them out of the way when the smoke clears!!
cheers

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PostSubject: Re: why is michigan   Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:41 pm

GOBLUEJOE66 wrote:
I am feeling even more excited about UM from 2018 forward, especially from the stable of QBs JH has now that John O is gone!!!!  Very Happy   Right now I am really anxious to see what Shea and Milton can do.   I think that their futures are very high if JH uses them as dual threat QBs, which is their strengths, IMO!!!!!  And McCaffery just might push both of them out of the way when the smoke clears!!
cheers  

Patterson IS NOT a dual threat QB. He does have excellent scrambling ability though.

I'm thinking that Patterson will not immediately be eligible even though I was hearing rumbling that he would be before he signed. Any thoughts on this?

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PostSubject: Re: why is michigan   Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:36 pm

GOBLUEJOE66 wrote:
... Right now I am really anxious to see what Shea and Milton can do.   I think that their futures are very high if JH uses them as dual threat QBs, which is their strengths, IMO!!!!!....


Although Shea is technically a Pro Style QB I don't think you are far off by labeling him as a dual threat. Example: Gardner was a true dual threat QB meaning, his skill set meant that there were clear run plays designed for him. IMO Shea just loves making stuff happen outside of the pocket and to me that's not the same as being a dual threat but it's not far off.

I still saw enough from Peters last year that I have to think he's the guy going into spring ball. Regardless of who starts at QB next year the QB position is in much better shape than it has been since 2006 and that's a step in the right direction.

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PostSubject: Re: why is michigan   Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:47 pm

sandyeggo_blue wrote:
GOBLUEJOE66 wrote:
... Right now I am really anxious to see what Shea and Milton can do.   I think that their futures are very high if JH uses them as dual threat QBs, which is their strengths, IMO!!!!!....


Although Shea is technically a Pro Style QB I don't think you are far off by labeling him as a dual threat. Example: Gardner was a true dual threat QB meaning, his skill set meant that there were clear run plays designed for him. IMO Shea just loves making stuff happen outside of the pocket and to me that's not the same as being a dual threat but it's not far off.

I still saw enough from Peters last year that I have to think he's the guy going into spring ball. Regardless of who starts at QB next year the QB position is in much better shape than it has been since 2006 and that's a step in the right direction.

Amen.
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PostSubject: Re: why is michigan   Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:55 am

I'm still saying if McCaffrey beefs up this summer watch out.

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PostSubject: Re: why is michigan   Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:56 am

Bo 2.0 wrote:
I'm still saying if McCaffrey beefs up this summer watch out.

IMO....the potential for the "stable" is there, what they need is coaching!!! Smile

Go Blue!!! Smile

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