158 total yards on offense.

wshoes wrote:

Beilein was/is a proven innovator and successful head coach with a long track record though, Brady is not.

I was chilly on the JB hire because from only having seen him a bit I thought he was all live by the 3 die by the 3. But I became convinced he WAS the guy when suffering through that first season I got to see how he handled adversity. I also got to understand his system and the spacing and back door cuts- it was never pass it around the perimeter and chuck up a 3 as critics liked to say.

Hoke though was a 47-50 head coach who was a feel good guy, not an innovator or an X's and O's guy. He can be successful at a place like Mich with all of the resources it has to offer, but you have a lot less margin for error with him, if he has under-performing assistants.

'shoes

I'd say completely turning around an abysmal Ball St. program and leading them to a 12-0 season is a pretty nice heather in Hoke's hat, no?

And to be fair, Beilein had only been past the Sweet 16 once his entire career.

I don't have a problem at this point for anyone sticking up for hoke, but you can't stick up for his offensive staff. Borges and funk are not improving our line, QB, and the play calling overall has been horrible. I can agree to give him time but there has been no improvement in the o. Everyone kept saying they are young, we are 11 games in, there are 2 sr's on that line it is now a poor excuse. They have not shown improvement that falls almost entirely on the coaches.

That turn around at Ball State isn't so clear. He had a worse record in his first 3 years than they had in the 3 years before he got there. He had ONE outstanding year with a do everything mobile QB and bolted.

'shoes

Here were my thoughts the day Michigan hired Hoke:

[Early in the morning, when word leaked to the press, roughly 7am CDT]: "WHAT?!?! WHO IN THE FUCK IS BRADY HOKE!?!?!?!?!"

[For the next hour, or however long until the presser finally happened]: "Oh my God. Oh my God." /flipping through Ball State's previous seasons' schedules on ESPN, and doing the exact same thing with SDSU. "What in the Hell kind of hire is this? I'm still sleeping, right? This is a nightmare??"

[Press Conference opening remarks by Dave Brandon]: "I hate you, you son of a bitch. Wherever you came from, you suck."

[Press Conference remarks by Brady Hoke]: "We would've walked from San Diego. This is Michigan Fergodsake." - Brady Hoke, Me: "FUCK YEAH IT IS!!!! AND NOW I KIND OF REMEMBER YOUR FACE AND YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT AND LET'S WRECK ALL THESE MOTHERFUGGAS IN THE BIG TEN!!!! BRADY FO' LYFE!!!!!!!!"

[2011 Season, Beat ND at UTL]: "asdklfhasdcbaskjdfak'lasdnahasdvn......I'm drunk, but i wuvvvvv Brady! asdknasdcnioasdn"

[2011 Season loss to MSU] "Never again, Brady. Remember this day. Never again."

[2011 Season, loss to Iowa] "Seriously? FUCK IOWA."

[2011 Season, beat OSU]: "This guy gets it! And he gets it done! Brady fo' lyyyyyyfe!"

[2011 Season, Sugar Bowl win]: "Unreal. Never in my wildest dreams think 11-2 and a BCS win was possible. What a helluva coach. This guy might be here for a long, long time.]

[Since then, progressively]: "Ah, we kinda expected that ass-whooping from Bama, but damn, we couldn't come out any better prepared than that?"

"FUCK NOTRE DAME."

"OH MY GOD! OH MY GOD! /almost begins crying after FG sails through uprights to beat MSU

"We should've beat Urban Meyer. Shit 2nd half lost that game. But we're definitely the better team."

"We couldn't win a game against a top-notch opponent all year" [following loss to South Carolina]

[2013] "We are an awful, awful football team."

I have been one of many saying BH should get one more year if he got rid of Borges and Funk. After going back and watching the game I'm now on the side and him and his staff being let go. To me, and this is just my opinion, if he really does love Michigan like he professes (and I have no reason to doubt that he does) then he needs to man up and tell the team before the game on Saturday that that will be his last game as the HC of UM! He needs to quit blaming the players, or blaming everything on youth. He needs to personally take responsibility for the failure of team 134! He does seem like a nice person, but he just doesn't appear to have the capability to coach at this level. Having said all of that, I feel like others do that Brandon won't let him go. I think it is time to start worrying about the impact on the current players and recruits we have lined up if we stay with the current staff!

Go Blue!!

I think it is time to start worrying about the impact on the current players and recruits we have lined up if we stay with the current staff!


I worry about that as well

umichfaninpa wrote:

I think it is time to start worrying about the impact on the current players and recruits we have lined up if we stay with the current staff!


I worry about that as well

Because firing the staff is a great way to keep recruits that committed to said staff.

 

At the rate our o is going they aren't going to jumping on the ship.

There is some great shit on the thread. Agree with a lot of it.

Hoke is a disciple of Bo. The Team, The Team, The Team. He needs to start living it. His friendship with coaches cannot come before Michigan and what's best for the program. Someone has to go.

Bo had a great football mind though. He had some really good assistants, many of who got HC opportunities with mixed success (Mac and Lloyd winning NCs) but they were either great position coaches or they didn't stay.

Bo was the smartest guy in the (coaches') room but he wasn't afraid to get as many smart guys as he could. Does anyone think Brady is the smartest guy in the room? He doesn't have to be but he needs to be smart enough to know when assistants aren't cutting it.

'shoes

Hoke seems clueless, BO was in charge and you could tell that, shit he even sent in the plays himself he had the gamelan in his hand, Hoke stands there and claps

My point is Hoke seems to be more loyal to his coaches than he is to the university. That is not what Bo taught him.

MgoBlue wrote:

My point is Hoke seems to be more loyal to his coaches than he is to the university.  That is not what Bo taught him.

+2

hailtoyourvictor wrote:

umichfaninpa wrote:

I think it is time to start worrying about the impact on the current players and recruits we have lined up if we stay with the current staff!


I worry about that as well

Because firing the staff is a great way to keep recruits that committed to said staff.

 

Well, we can keep Hoke and continue to recruit all the blue chips we want...but if he and his staff can't develop them, what's the point? That's the epitome of being a Charlie Weis-ran Notre Dame team

At some point, you have to be willing to sacrifice the immediate future for the better, long-term good of the program.

Depending on what happens over these next two games, Dave may find himself having to make that decision (although you know I already believe he should be making this decision). But, as mentioned in other threads I believe, Hoke was Brandon's hire, and because of that, he'll get a longer leash. However, if we can run outta our own stadium next week, and blown out in a bowl game, how does Brandon NOT seriously consider making a change across the board?

So how many of these blue chip recruits has Hoke failed to develop so far? Just curious.

Seriously, just look at the offense.

Admin:  I reluctantly agree with you:  why delay the inevitable.  We have seen three years of great recruiting but seemingly delayed development and application of their skills.  However, I do think that "Brandonomics" will prevail for at least one more year rather than paying off terminated contracts.  That is just my humble opinion, for what it's worth.

The offense is in shambles, the QB situation appears clueless, the O line inept, and the defense inconsistent (maybe because they are on the field so much).  I hate to see the Michigan reputation sullied with another firing, but "why delay the inevitable".

The ending of the Iowa game yesterday could be the next to last nail in the coffin.  I hate the thought of attending the game next Saturday, which could be the final nail.  O$U is likely to do some SERIOUS ass-kicking and it won't be pretty.

'too

Lol if you guys expect reap the rewards of "elite recruiting classes" in their freshman and sophomore years. This isn't basketball.

I am not even going to watch next week's game. I'm sure it will be a sickenly-bad performance. Gardner is likely to get killed. I am sorry hail, but these frosh and sophs are just bad, or at least very badly coached. I would expect them to accidently make a good play once in awhile, but that doesn't seem to be happening. Assistants must go, and BH has two years to right this ship.

hailtoyourvictor wrote:

So how many of these blue chip recruits has Hoke failed to develop so far? Just curious.

Basically, all of them. And some, like Lewan and Scholfield, have devolved.

Hey hail, how come freshman can successfully play the line at other schools? Some even TRUE freshman. We have guys that have been with this staff 2-3 years that have not shown progress.

hailtoyourvictor wrote:

So how many of these blue chip recruits has Hoke failed to develop so far? Just curious.

Pretty much every single one on the roster, at this point.

From the 2011 class (now juniors), only a handful see the field: Clark, Countess, Beyer, Morgan and Wile. There really hasn't been much development from Clark since the Sugar Bowl when he had the pick-six. Beyer will never be anything more than meh. Countess is the only 'stud' from that class. Morgan is an alright LB, but misses way too many tackles. Wile has regressed throughout his career it seems.

From the 2012 class (no sophomores): Funchess, Bolden, Kalis, Norfleet, Pipkins, Ross III, Jarrod Wilson and Williams really only see the field. Kalis may turn out to be the most overrated OL in the history of CFB. Norfleet is a speedster, nothing more, nothing less. Pipkins was not impressive prior to the injury. Williams is a guy who was recruited as a TE, though he had never had a single catch on the varsity team in high school. Yesterday's TD catch was his first reception, basically, ever in his life. Jarrod Wilson has improved zero over the course of this season. It's still too early to judge these kids' careers, but through nearly 1/2 of their time with this program, there has been essentially zero development.

2013 class: Jourdan Lewis and Channing Stribling should both be manning the prep team in practice. Neither one of them is ready to be on the field, and each time they have been, they've been extreme liabilities. And it brings up the question of how overrated was Dymonte Thomas that these kids are getting on the field in the secondary before him? Bosch has been thrown to the wolves as he is not ready. Taco Charlton not on the field enough.

Most importantly, there has been almost zero development from the kids that have gone from freshman to juniors and sophomores to seniors under his tutelage.

It's easy for me to point out a couple dozen kids who have not been developed.

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on players who actually HAVE developed over the last three years. Don't worry, I'll wait.

LOL..Norfleet is the greatest return man in the history of college football to never return one for a TD. I always laugh when people get all excited thinking this will the one he takes all the way. He just can't break one. I think he has a good burst but does not good enough top end speed to go the distance.

MgoBlue wrote:

LOL..Norfleet is the greatest return man in the history of college football to never return one for a TD.  I always laugh when people get all excited thinking this will the one he takes all the way.  He just can't break one.  I think he has a good burst but does not good enough top end speed to go the distance.

I think he has the speed, but I also think he lacks a little bit in his vision. And he's never really received great blocking, an issue that isn't his fault.

Also, for Hail, who likes to use Brady's winning percentage as a crutch (when he compares it to Lloyd's win percentage)....

If/when Brady gets blown out this Saturday, that winning percentage will fall to 68%.

68%.

I to fail to see any improvement in this team week after wee the offense fail to get the job done. The defense is Jeckyl and Hyde 1 series they look like MSU the next they look like Purdue. Gardner is just lost, anyone could see he will not be good QB and should be honest with him and move , even if Morris is not ready WTF play him for the expierence, Gardner not getting it done, Green should be the running back, and the line should go basic man on man zone blocking pwer football, and less complicated than Borges wants, simplify thing for the young players and make it work

Admin, you're player assessments are biased extremely towards the negative. Clark and Morgan are both having very good years, as is true sophomore James Ross. I also think Jarrod Wilson is coming along nicely and is already a decent player. The problem there is that all four of them are defensive players.

I think it's a little early to pass judgment on the 2012 class, but I do agree that the early returns don't look great. It's disappointing that the supposedly great o-line class hasn't produced a player who is even yet passable, particularly Kalis, Williams is the designated blocking TE who is terrible at blocking, and Norfleet will apparently never contribute anything on offense (with all the problems on O this year and Dileo being out half the year he still never sees the field on offense). Like I said, it's still early to judge them, but so far, other than Funchess, all the positives are on defense.

jjabilene wrote:

Admin, you're player assessments are biased extremely towards the negative. Clark and Morgan are both having very good years, as is true sophomore James Ross. I also think Jarrod Wilson is coming along nicely and is already a decent player. The problem there is that all four of them are defensive players.

I think it's a little early to pass judgment on the 2012 class, but I do agree that the early returns don't look great. It's disappointing that the supposedly great o-line class hasn't produced a player who is even yet passable, particularly Kalis, Williams is the designated blocking TE who is terrible at blocking, and Norfleet will apparently never contribute anything on offense (with all the problems on O this year and Dileo being out half the year he still never sees the field on offense). Like I said, it's still early to judge them, but so far, other than Funchess, all the positives are on defense.

This is exactly why I am done with this conversation. Everybody is so biased in their opinions that they can't sit back and look at things objectively. I am just going to use Frank Clark as my example.

"There really hasn't been that much development from Clark since the Sugar Bowl when he had that pick 6."

First of all, Frank Clark never had a pick 6 in the Sugar Bowl. It was an amazing interception, though.

Anyways....

Freshman year:
12 games. 10 tackles (3 solo, 7 assisted). 0.5 tackles for loss. 0 sacks. 0 passes broken up. 0 QB hurries. 0 fumble recoveries. 1 INT.

Sophomore year:
13 games. 25 tackles (16 solo, 9 assisted). 9.0 tackles for loss. 2 sacks. 3 passes broken up. 0 QB hurries. 0 fumble recoveries. 0 INTs.

Junior year:
11 games. 41 tackles (18 solo, 23 assisted). 12.5 tackles for loss. 5 sacks. 1 pass broken up. 7 QB hurries. 1 fumble recovery. 1 touchdown. 0 INTs.


If you are going to be so ignorantly biased that you can't even admit Frank Clark has shown good development, then I have no interest wasting my time discussing the topic.

My concern is the offense, defense has made mistakes but they are on the field a lot. I believe we have made improvement on that end and younger players are developing. The lack of develop on offense is my concern.

Define develop. I mean you have a team with 85 players. Odds are a handful will show improvement while they are in college regardless of the coaching. So you can't just point to 4-5 guys and say look at them. That's all on the coach. That said compare what MSU gets out of their players to what we get and you would be hard pressed to make a good argument on Hoke developing players. Name one phase of the game where we have markedly improved this year? People were laughing their asses off at MSU's offense in the beginning of the season. Now their going to the B1G championship.