Beilein is NOT the answer.

This is what I heard over and over three years ago. John Beilein's first three seasons went like this:

Beilein by season:
1st season: 10-22 (5-13). Missed NCAA Tournament.
2nd season: 21-14 (9-9). Lost in the 2nd round of the NCAA Tournament.
3rd season: 15-17 (7-11). Missed the NCAA Tournament.

In his third season, Michigan had way too much talent (DeShawn Sims and Manny Harris) to miss the NCAA tournament. People that don't realize how a program is built were calling for Beilein's head.

"Beilein is NOT the answer."
"Why settle for mediocrity?"
"Fire Beilein."
"Beilein can't recruit blue chip players."

It was a common theme.

I was in the group saying: "Manny Harris and DeShawn Sims are great, but they aren't Beilein-type players. Give Beilein a chance to get a full class of his recruits through the program before we give up on him."

I was criticized.

Well......
4th season: 21-14 (9-9). Lost to Duke by 2 in the "3rd round" of the NCAA Tournament.
5th season: 24-10 (13-5). Lost in the "2nd round" of the NCAA Tournament.
6th season: 31-8 (12-6). Lost in the National Championship game of the NCAA Tournament.

It takes time to build a college athletic program. Even more so in football than basketball, because NCAA basketball players usually come in ready to play from Day 1. Football players need a year or two of strength and conditioning before their physically able to compete on a college level.

I'm happier than hell we didn't give up on Beilein too soon, and I'm willing to give Hoke sufficient time, too.

And I know many of you aren't basketball guys, but I'm not exaggerating or making it up. There were a lot of people that wanted Beilein fired after we failed to make the NCAA Tournament with a team that had Senior DeShawn Sims and Junior Manny Harris.

I'm sure some of you remember, though.

Hail,

You are right on that. I think hoke is a players coach,mid a good recruiter and has a good personality. I like him as our coach but he need to surround himself with top notch coordinators and position coaches. His OC is letting him down. I know the line is young but it is a combination of that youth and terrible game plans/play calling.

I agree.

hailtoyourvictor wrote:

It takes time to build a college athletic program.

There are countless examples proving otherwise. Look at any great coaches and you will see it didn't take them 5 years to turn a program around. Gus Malzahn inherited a team that went 3-9 the year before and has them 8-1 in year one in the SEC with wins vs. Mississippi St and AT A & M.

MgoBlue wrote:

hailtoyourvictor wrote:

It takes time to build a college athletic program.

There are countless examples proving otherwise.  Look at any great coaches and you will see it didn't take them 5 years to turn a program around.  Gus Malzahn inherited a team that went 3-9 the year before and has them 8-1 in year one in the SEC with wins vs. Mississippi St and AT A & M.  

Proving otherwise? So those are the rules, rather than the exceptions? For every "example that proves otherwise", I can show you a handful of examples that prove so.

Go for it. Name some coaches that need 5-6 years to build their program and now are consistently good.

Hail you never fail to amaze me, The lengths you go to so you can pat yourself on the back. How much research did you study just to prove your point

MgoBlue wrote:

Go for it.  Name some coaches that need 5-6 years to build their program and now are consistently good.

Since when is a full recruit cycle 5-6 years? I said a full recruit cycle, did I not? Would that not mean 4 years? Way to put words in my mouth, though.

the artist formally known wrote:

Hail you never fail to amaze me, The lengths you go to so you can pat yourself on the back. How much research did you study just to prove your point

I didn't have to do much research. I follow Michigan basketball way more than I should. I remember how frustrating it was dealing with the people who wouldn't give Beilein a fair shake. Are you glad that Michigan stuck with Beilein?

MgoBlue, do you think Beilein should have been fired after failing to get to the NCAAT two out of his three first years coaching and having a less-than-stellar recruit class coming in his 4th year?

I think what people are failing to realize is that sparty is the real deal this year. It pains me greatly to say that but it's true.

I never said that about Coach Beilein. I was sold on him AFTER that first bad year when I saw how he responded to it. There were plenty that did though. But the better comparison is not Hoke but Rodriguez-

"runs a gimmick offense"

"won't work in the Big Ten"

"can't recruit the right guys"

Except Beilein had the support of his administration, wasn't being sniped at by a still on campus previous coach and the fans were more patient.

Beilien didn't have to, wasn't trying to, meet some long held ingrained image of what a Michigan man was supposed to say and sound like, and it has worked out pretty well.

'shoes

wshoes wrote:

I never said that about Coach Beilein. I was sold on him AFTER that first bad year when I saw how he responded to it. There were plenty that did though. But the better comparison is not Hoke but Rodriguez-

"runs a gimmick offense"

"won't work in the Big Ten"

"can't recruit the right guys"

Except Beilein had the support of his administration, wasn't being sniped at by a still on campus previous coach and the fans were more patient.

Beilien didn't have to, wasn't trying to, meet some long held ingrained  image of what a Michigan man was supposed to say and sound like, and it has worked out pretty well.

'shoes

'Shoes knows!!! +++++

hailtoyourvictor wrote:

I agree.

As do I, but if and when he does not make the needed changes in his staff, then he will have to go too.

wshoes wrote:

I never said that about Coach Beilein. I was sold on him AFTER that first bad year when I saw how he responded to it. There were plenty that did though. But the better comparison is not Hoke but Rodriguez-

"runs a gimmick offense"

"won't work in the Big Ten"

"can't recruit the right guys"

Except Beilein had the support of his administration, wasn't being sniped at by a still on campus previous coach and the fans were more patient.

Beilien didn't have to, wasn't trying to, meet some long held ingrained  image of what a Michigan man was supposed to say and sound like, and it has worked out pretty well.

'shoes

I'm glad we gave Beilein the time he needed to build the program. Michigan hasn't been this relevant in basketball in 20 years. When is the last time Michigan basketball was a pre-season top 10 team two years in a row?

It's an interesting comparison hail, and there's some validity to it. One interesting parallel is the way people liked comparing the state of the basketball program negatively to other programs. There are three that immediately jump to mind, Tubby Smith at Minny, Huggins at WVU, and Lavin at St. Johns. The basketball program is in much better shape than those three programs right now. The Lavin comparison was especially interesting because he had immediate success due to inheriting a team full of seniors, then took a step back when they graduated. I remember people railing on Beilein saying look how easy it is to turn a program around, Lavin did it in one year. The point there is that you can't just compare programs in a vacuum, there are all kinds of factors that effect how quickly a program can be turned around.

I will say that I think Hoke is still getting more support from the fans than Beilein ever did. Many people wanted Beilein gone on the eve of last year's NCAA tournament. I am proud to say that I supported Beilein from day one and if that's tooting my own horn, then oh well.

I'm not taking the bait here today.

Hoke isn't the answer. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Admin wrote:

I'm not taking the bait here today.

Hoke isn't the answer. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

I need to follow your lead. Saturday's get me so frustrated and then I let boil over all week. It's not healthy.

I agree with Hail in a way... It's a strong argument.

And then I think of what someone said about buying expensive tickets and such, and it just brings me back to where I was.

In basketball, the coach runs the show, hands down. He has assistants, but for the most part, he makes the calls. In football, the head coach has to rely on his staff far more.

I would be willing to give Hoke another year IF he agrees to overhaul his staff. If plans on sticking with Borges, then he needs to go too. I know that is not how it works...

EJinGA wrote:

And then I think of what someone said about buying expensive tickets and such, and it just brings me back to where I was.

Who makes the decision to buy the tickets? Can we now fire you? At the end of the day football is college athletics. People learn from it, it makes student-athletes into better people. That's the entire point of the Athletic Department. Costs are what they are because people pay those prices, if you are truly unhappy don't go. If enough people feel that ay and stop going then prices will come down, plus the rest of the university will suffer. The two go hand-in-hand.

It goes back to what Admin is saying about settling for mediocrity. Shelling out all that cash for a crap product. The cost is going up and the quality of the product is going down, and yet people still buy the tickets and accept it.

I'm not going to get into a comparison of Belien and Hoke, really, other than the fact that the argument could be made that last year's Michigan team advanced further than it probably should have (hey, it was a great run and they deserved to be there...but I don't think anyone would truly argue that Michigan was the 2nd best team in the country last season when stacked up apples to apples).

---> [I just reread that last line after posting it, and if anything, THAT PROVES MY POINT MORE. Belein was able to have enormous success with a team that wasn't nearly as talented, top to bottom, as quite a few of the other teams in last year's tournament. Yet he won. HOKE ISN'T DOING THAT. Everyone wants to point out the lack of talent on our team...well if Hoke is truly THE GUY, he should be producing with less talent. Then when his players get here he should be murdering teams.]

And the people arguing that Hoke hasn't had a chance to have his own players on the field aren't necessarily wrong.

However, it's the development (or serious lack of development) of the players he inherited that is the telling sign for me.

It's his inability to win a game outside of AA that is the telling sign for me.

It's his inability to demand better from his coordinators that is the telling sign for me.

It's his inability to, like many of the fans, take the blinders off and give an honest assessment of the state of the program [that being said, perhaps he knows exactly how shit this program is right now, and he chooses not to voice that publicly - which is a good thing - but maybe he truly doesn't realize this?), that is the telling sign for me.

Many of you can go on and on that he needs more time, but I think the proof is already in the pudding...a "full recruiting cycle" or not.

Admin wrote:

I'm not going to get into a comparison of Belien and Hoke, really, other than the fact that the argument could be made that last year's Michigan team advanced further than it probably should have (hey, it was a great run and they deserved to be there...but I don't think anyone would truly argue that Michigan was the 2nd best team in the country last season when stacked up apples to apples).

---> [I just reread that last line after posting it, and if anything, THAT PROVES MY POINT MORE. Belein was able to have enormous success with a team that wasn't nearly as talented, top to bottom, as quite a few of the other teams in last year's tournament. Yet he won. HOKE ISN'T DOING THAT. Everyone wants to point out the lack of talent on our team...well if Hoke is truly THE GUY, he should be producing with less talent. Then when his players get here he should be murdering teams.]

And the people arguing that Hoke hasn't had a chance to have his own players on the field aren't necessarily wrong.

However, it's the development (or serious lack of development) of the players he inherited that is the telling sign for me.

It's his inability to win a game outside of AA that is the telling sign for me.

It's his inability to demand better from his coordinators that is the telling sign for me.

It's his inability to, like many of the fans, take the blinders off and give an honest assessment of the state of the program [that being said, perhaps he knows exactly how shit this program is right now, and he chooses not to voice that publicly - which is a good thing - but maybe he truly doesn't realize this?), that is the telling sign for me.

Many of you can go on and on that he needs more time, but I think the proof is already in the pudding...a "full recruiting cycle" or not.

Although I don't agree with all of them, your points are reasonable, and I'll say this, there won't be any excuse not to be a lot better next year. In particular, with a healthy Ryan, there is no reason we shouldn't have one of the best, if not THE best, defenses in the conference next year.

In basketball one-and-done is almost common, in Football you must stay in college at least three years. Therefore a young punk can dominate in basketball (Le'Bron) but not in football (Mo'Clarrett). It takes time in Football for young bodies to develop as well as to learn the game. Football isn't as simple as bouncing a ball and throwing it through a hole...

The Borges thing is another issue. I don't agree with many of his calls but do you honestly want Coach Hoke to lamb-bast him in the media? That is the same thing as dressing-down a player on the sidelines, do you really want to be ohio?

2ndComingOfBo wrote:

 I don't agree with many of his calls but do you honestly want Coach Hoke to lamb-bast him in the media?

No. I want him to fire Borgess. That's all.

Admin wrote:

I'm not going to get into a comparison of Belien and Hoke, really, other than the fact that the argument could be made that last year's Michigan team advanced further than it probably should have (hey, it was a great run and they deserved to be there...but I don't think anyone would truly argue that Michigan was the 2nd best team in the country last season when stacked up apples to apples).

---> [I just reread that last line after posting it, and if anything, THAT PROVES MY POINT MORE. Belein was able to have enormous success with a team that wasn't nearly as talented, top to bottom, as quite a few of the other teams in last year's tournament. Yet he won. HOKE ISN'T DOING THAT. Everyone wants to point out the lack of talent on our team...well if Hoke is truly THE GUY, he should be producing with less talent. Then when his players get here he should be murdering teams.]

1. Last year's team isn't really relevant to my point. My point is, Beilein's teams struggled his first three years. Beilein's first three years were worse than Hoke's firs three years. Beilein faield to make the NCAAT with a team that had Manny Harris and DeShawn Sims on it. That team was ranked pre-season and wasn't a top 64 team come March. You would have been pissing and moaning about firing Beilein had you cared about basketball.

And before you start arguing with me about basketball, Michigan was easily one of the top 10 teams in terms of overall talent last year.

Burke = All Big Ten 1st team, National Player of the Year, Lottery pick.
Hardaway Jr. = All Big Ten 1st team, 1st round pick
GRIII = Projected 2014 lottery pick
Mitch McGary = Projected 2014 lottery pick

I love Beilein. I think he is one of the best coaches in college basketball, but he didn't turn water into wine like you are making it seem.

hailtoyourvictor wrote:

Admin wrote:

I'm not going to get into a comparison of Belien and Hoke, really, other than the fact that the argument could be made that last year's Michigan team advanced further than it probably should have (hey, it was a great run and they deserved to be there...but I don't think anyone would truly argue that Michigan was the 2nd best team in the country last season when stacked up apples to apples).

---> [I just reread that last line after posting it, and if anything, THAT PROVES MY POINT MORE. Belein was able to have enormous success with a team that wasn't nearly as talented, top to bottom, as quite a few of the other teams in last year's tournament. Yet he won. HOKE ISN'T DOING THAT. Everyone wants to point out the lack of talent on our team...well if Hoke is truly THE GUY, he should be producing with less talent. Then when his players get here he should be murdering teams.]

1. Last year's team isn't really relevant to my point. My point is, Beilein's teams struggled his first three years. Beilein's first three years were worse than Hoke's firs three years. Beilein faield to make the NCAAT with a team that had Manny Harris and DeShawn Sims on it. That team was ranked pre-season and wasn't a top 64 team come March. You would have been pissing and moaning about firing Beilein had you cared about basketball.

And before you start arguing with me about basketball, Michigan was easily one of the top 10 teams in terms of overall talent last year.

Burke = All Big Ten 1st team, National Player of the Year, Lottery pick.
Hardaway Jr. = All Big Ten 1st team, 1st round pick
GRIII = Projected 2014 lottery pick
Mitch McGary = Projected 2014 lottery pick

I love Beilein. I think he is one of the best coaches in college basketball, but he didn't turn water into wine like you are making it seem.

Counter-points:

Burke was a 3 star that his home town Buckeyes (an no other top programs had any interest in).

Similarly Beilein identified Tim Jr and GR3 as top level prospects before anyone else did.

All three grew and thrived under his coaching- that's to his credit.

'shoes

wshoes wrote:

hailtoyourvictor wrote:

Admin wrote:

I'm not going to get into a comparison of Belien and Hoke, really, other than the fact that the argument could be made that last year's Michigan team advanced further than it probably should have (hey, it was a great run and they deserved to be there...but I don't think anyone would truly argue that Michigan was the 2nd best team in the country last season when stacked up apples to apples).

---> [I just reread that last line after posting it, and if anything, THAT PROVES MY POINT MORE. Belein was able to have enormous success with a team that wasn't nearly as talented, top to bottom, as quite a few of the other teams in last year's tournament. Yet he won. HOKE ISN'T DOING THAT. Everyone wants to point out the lack of talent on our team...well if Hoke is truly THE GUY, he should be producing with less talent. Then when his players get here he should be murdering teams.]

1. Last year's team isn't really relevant to my point. My point is, Beilein's teams struggled his first three years. Beilein's first three years were worse than Hoke's firs three years. Beilein faield to make the NCAAT with a team that had Manny Harris and DeShawn Sims on it. That team was ranked pre-season and wasn't a top 64 team come March. You would have been pissing and moaning about firing Beilein had you cared about basketball.

And before you start arguing with me about basketball, Michigan was easily one of the top 10 teams in terms of overall talent last year.

Burke = All Big Ten 1st team, National Player of the Year, Lottery pick.
Hardaway Jr. = All Big Ten 1st team, 1st round pick
GRIII = Projected 2014 lottery pick
Mitch McGary = Projected 2014 lottery pick

I love Beilein. I think he is one of the best coaches in college basketball, but he didn't turn water into wine like you are making it seem.

Counter-points:

Burke was a 3 star that his home town Buckeyes (an no other top programs had any interest in).

Similarly Beilein identified Tim Jr and GR3 as top level prospects before anyone else did.

All three grew and thrived under his coaching- that's to his credit.

'shoes

Counter-counter point.

Burke is small and not the prototypical player. There were others from the same school that were better than him.

THJ and GRIII were sons of former NBA players, that has to mean something. You claiming that Belein "coached them up" is absurd. I dislike the game but even I know this stuff.

2ndComingOfBo wrote:

wshoes wrote:

hailtoyourvictor wrote:

Admin wrote:

I'm not going to get into a comparison of Belien and Hoke, really, other than the fact that the argument could be made that last year's Michigan team advanced further than it probably should have (hey, it was a great run and they deserved to be there...but I don't think anyone would truly argue that Michigan was the 2nd best team in the country last season when stacked up apples to apples).

---> [I just reread that last line after posting it, and if anything, THAT PROVES MY POINT MORE. Belein was able to have enormous success with a team that wasn't nearly as talented, top to bottom, as quite a few of the other teams in last year's tournament. Yet he won. HOKE ISN'T DOING THAT. Everyone wants to point out the lack of talent on our team...well if Hoke is truly THE GUY, he should be producing with less talent. Then when his players get here he should be murdering teams.]

1. Last year's team isn't really relevant to my point. My point is, Beilein's teams struggled his first three years. Beilein's first three years were worse than Hoke's firs three years. Beilein faield to make the NCAAT with a team that had Manny Harris and DeShawn Sims on it. That team was ranked pre-season and wasn't a top 64 team come March. You would have been pissing and moaning about firing Beilein had you cared about basketball.

And before you start arguing with me about basketball, Michigan was easily one of the top 10 teams in terms of overall talent last year.

Burke = All Big Ten 1st team, National Player of the Year, Lottery pick.
Hardaway Jr. = All Big Ten 1st team, 1st round pick
GRIII = Projected 2014 lottery pick
Mitch McGary = Projected 2014 lottery pick

I love Beilein. I think he is one of the best coaches in college basketball, but he didn't turn water into wine like you are making it seem.

Counter-points:

Burke was a 3 star that his home town Buckeyes (an no other top programs had any interest in).

Similarly Beilein identified Tim Jr and GR3 as top level prospects before anyone else did.

All three grew and thrived under his coaching- that's to his credit.

'shoes

Counter-counter point.

Burke is small and not the prototypical player.  There were others from the same school that were better than him.

THJ and GRIII were sons of former NBA players, that has to mean something.  You claiming that Belein "coached them up" is absurd.  I dislike the game but even I know this stuff.

Absurd? maybe you should talk to them or their fathers- all of whom have credited Coach Beilein in interviews.

'shoes